Престолодрочеры всех стран, в кучу сгребайтесь!

Анон · 2014-04-28 20:03:43

В этом треде обсуждают книги Джорджа Р. Р. Мартина по миру ПЛиО, а также снятые по книгам сериалы "Игра престолов" и "Дом Дракона".

По базовым вопросам лора идти сюда: https://7kingdoms.ru/wiki/

▼реки на фанфики собираем в таблице⬍

Правила поведения в треде:
• картинки и видео убираем под кат, по возможности кат подписываем и даём ссылки на авторов
• все пейринговые и рейтинговые накуры убираем под кат, обязательно подписываем (особенно потенциально сквичное!)

Анон · 2024-09-05 00:05:15

Анон пишет:

Всяко лучше, чем хелеймондовские фанфики, мы уже видели, что случается, если шоураннеры вдохновляются пейрингами с Ao3.

Я люблю Эймонда, поэтому только не это. Я алисмонда-то боюсь, и наверно предпочёл бы, чтобы его не было в сериале, потому что это однозначно будет что-то очень неприятное. Точнее, мне и хочется и колется :sadcat:

Анон · 2024-09-05 01:28:20

А Мартин пост удалил что ли? На сайте ошибку выдает(( не успела прочитать

Анон · 2024-09-05 02:06:45

Анон пишет:

Так что да, его либо проигнорили, либо просто сказали молчать в тряпочку, а он устал уже молчать.

Так а что сделают, сезон уже сечь, поздно пить боржоми. Только клятвенно заверить, что в третьем сезоне асе норм? Или Мартин просил, покажите сценарий, они не показали или наоборот показали, вот и бомбануло?

Анон · 2024-09-05 02:07:16

Анон пишет:

А Мартин пост удалил что ли? На сайте ошибку выдает(( не успела прочитать

На реддите и 7к есть текст, тут ссылки вносили

Анон · 2024-09-05 03:27:36

Анон пишет:

А Мартин пост удалил что ли? На сайте ошибку выдает(( не успела прочитать

Принесла с 7К текст

▼Скрытый текст⬍

Back in July, I promised you some further thoughts about Blood and Cheese… and Maelor the Missing… after my commentary on the first two episodes of HotD season 2, “A Son for a Son” and “Rhaenyra the Cruel.”

Those were terrific episodes: well written, well directed, powerfully acted. A great way to kick off the new season. Fans and critics alike seemed to agree. There was only one aspect of the episodes that drew significant criticism: the handling of Blood and Cheese, and the death of Prince Jaehaerys. From the commentary I saw on line, opinion was split there. The readers of FIRE & BLOOD found the sequence underwhelming, a disappointment, watered down from what they were expecting. Viewers who had not read the book had no such problems. Most of them found the sequence a real gut-punch, tragic, horrifying, nightmarish, etc. Some reported being reduced to tears.

I found myself agreeing with both sides.

In my book, Aegon and Helaena have three children, not two. The twins, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, are six years old. They have a younger brother, Maelor, who is two. When Blood and Cheese break in on Helaena and the kids, they tell her they are debt collectors come to exact revenge for the death of Prince Lucerys: a son for a son. As Helaena has two sons, however, they demand that she choose which one should die. She resists and offers her own life instead, but the killers insist it has to be a son. If she does not name one, they will kill all three of the children. To save the life of the twins, Helaena names Maelor. But Blood kills the older boy, Jaehaerys, instead, while Cheese tells little Maelor that his mother wanted him dead. (Whether the boy is old enough to understand that is not at all certain).

That’s not how it happens on the show. There is no Maelor in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, only the twins (both of whom look younger than six, but I am no sure judge of children’s ages, so I can’t be sure how old they are supposed to be). Blood can’t seem to tell the twins apart, so Helaena is asked to reveal which one is the boy. (You would think a glance up his PJs would reveal that, without involving the mother). Instead of offering her own life to save the kids, Helaena offers them a necklace. Blood and Cheese are not tempted. Blood saws Prince Jaehaerys’s head off. We are spared the sight of that; a sound effect suffices. (In the book, he lops the head off with a sword).

It is a bloody, brutal scene, no doubt. How not? An innocent child is being butchered in front of his mother.

I still believe the scene in the book is stronger. The readers have the right of that. The two killers are crueler in the book. I thought the actors who played the killers on the show were excellent… but the characters are crueler, harder, and more frightening in FIRE & BLOOD. In the show, Blood is a gold cloak. In the book, he is a former gold cloak, stripped of his office for beating a woman to death. Book Blood is the sort of man who might think making a woman choose which of her sons should die is amusing, especially when they double down on the wanton cruelty by murdering the boy she tries to save. Book Cheese is worse too; he does not kick a dog, true, but he does not have a dog, and he’s the one who tells Maelor that his mom wants him head. I would also suggest that Helaena shows more courage, more strength in the book, by offering her own own life to save her son. Offering a piece of jewelry is just not the same.

As I saw it, the “Sophie’s Choice” aspect was the strongest part of the sequence, the darkest, the most visceral. I hated to lose that. And judging from the comments on line, most of the fans seemed to agree.
When Ryan Condal first told me what he meant to do, ages ago (back in 2022, might be) I argued against it, for all these reasons. I did not argue long, or with much heat, however. The change weakened the sequence, I felt, but only a bit. And Ryan had what seemed to be practical reasons for it; they did not want to deal with casting another child, especially a two-year old toddler. Kids that young will inevitably slow down production, and there would be budget implications. Budget was already an issue on HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, it made sense to save money wherever we could. Moreover, Ryan assured me that we were not losing Prince Maelor, simply postponing him. Queen Helaena could still give birth to him in season three, presumably after getting with child late in season two. That made sense to me, so I withdrew my objections and acquiesced to the change.

I still love the episode, and the Blood and Cheese sequence overall. Losing the “Helaena’s Choice” beat did weaken the scene, but not to any great degree. Only the book readers would even notice its absence; viewers who had never read FIRE & BLOOD would still find the scenes heart-rending. Maelor did not actually DO anything in the scene, after all. How could he? He was only two years old.

There is another aspect to the removal of the young princeling, however.

Those of you who hate spoilers should STOP READING HERE. Spoilers will follow, at least for the readers among you. If you have never read FIRE & BLOOD, maybe it does not matter, because all I am going to “spoil” here are things that happen in the book that may NEVER happen on the series. Starting with Maelor himself.

Sometime between the initial decision to remove Maelor, a big change was made. The prince’s birth was no longer just going to be pushed back to season 3. He was never going to be born at all. The younger son of Aegon and Helaena would never appear.
When Ryan Condal first told me what he meant to do, ages ago (back in 2022, might be) I argued against it, for all these reasons. I did not argue long, or with much heat, however. The change weakened the sequence, I felt, but only a bit. And Ryan had what seemed to be practical reasons for it; they did not want to deal with casting another child, especially a two-year old toddler. Kids that young will inevitably slow down production, and there would be budget implications. Budget was already an issue on HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, it made sense to save money wherever we could. Moreover, Ryan assured me that we were not losing Prince Maelor, simply postponing him. Queen Helaena could still give birth to him in season three, presumably after getting with child late in season two. That made sense to me, so I withdrew my objections and acquiesced to the change.

I still love the episode, and the Blood and Cheese sequence overall. Losing the “Helaena’s Choice” beat did weaken the scene, but not to any great degree. Only the book readers would even notice its absence; viewers who had never read FIRE & BLOOD would still find the scenes heart-rending. Maelor did not actually DO anything in the scene, after all. How could he? He was only two years old.

There is another aspect to the removal of the young princeling, however.

Those of you who hate spoilers should STOP READING HERE. Spoilers will follow, at least for the readers among you. If you have never read FIRE & BLOOD, maybe it does not matter, because all I am going to “spoil” here are things that happen in the book that may NEVER happen on the series. Starting with Maelor himself.

Sometime between the initial decision to remove Maelor, a big change was made. The prince’s birth was no longer just going to be pushed back to season 3. He was never going to be born at all. The younger son of Aegon and Helaena would never appear.
Most of you know about the Butterfly Effect, I assume.

Yes, there was a movie with that title a few years back. It’s a familiar concept in chaos theory as well. But most science fiction fans were first exposed to the idea in Ray Bradbury’s classic time travel story, “A Sound of Thunder,” wherein a time traveler from the present panics and crushes a butterfly while hunting a T-Rex. When he returns to his own time, he discovers that the world has changed in huge and frightening ways. One dead butterfly has rewritten history. The lesson being that change begets change, and even small and seemingly insignificant alterations to a timeline — or a story — can have a profound effect on all that follows.

Maelor is a two year old toddler in FIRE & BLOOD, but like our butterfly he has an impact on the story all out of proportion to his size. The readers among you may recall that when it appears that Rhaenyra and her blacks are about to capture King’s Landing, Queen Alicent becomes concerned for the safety of Helaena’s remaining children, and takes steps to save them by smuggling them out of the city. The task is given is two knights of the Kingsguard. Ser Willis Fell is commanded to deliver Princess Jaehaera to the Baratheons at Storm’s End, while Maelor is given over to Ser Rickard Thorne to be escorted across the Mander to the protection of the Hightower army on its way to King’s Landing.

Willis Fell delivers Jaehaera safely to the Baratheons at Storm’s End, but Ser Rickard fares less well. He and Maelor get as far as Bitterbridge, where he is revealed as a Kingsuard in a tavern called the Hogs Head. Once discovered, Ser Rickard fights bravely to protect his young charge and bring him to safety, but he does not even make it across the bridge before some crossbows bring him down, Prince Maelor is torn from his arms.. and then, sadly, ripped to pieces by the mob fighting over the boy and the huge reward that Rhaenyra has offered for his capture and return.

Will any of that appear on the show? Maybe… but I don’t see how. The butterflies would seem to prohibit it. You could perhaps make Ser Rickard’s ward be Jaehaera instead of Maelor, but Jaehaera can’t be killed, she has a huge role to play as Aegon’s next heir. Could maybe make Maelor a newborn instead of a two year old, but that would scramble up the timeline, which is a bit of a mess already. I have no idea what Ryan has planned — if indeed he has planned anything — but given Maelor’s absence from episode 2, the simplest way to proceed would be just to drop him entirely, lose the bit where Alicent tries to send the kids to safety, drop Rickard Thorne or send him with Willis Fell so Jaehaera has two guards.

From what I know, that seems to be what Ryan is doing here. It’s simplest, yes, and may make sense in terms of budgets and shooting schedules. But simpler is not better. The Bitterbridge scene has tension, suspense, action, bloodshed, a bit of heroism and a lot of tragedy. Rickard Thorne is a tertiary character at best, most viewers (as opposed to readers) will never know he is gone, since they never knew him at all… but I rather liked giving him his brief moment of heroism, a taste of the courage and loyalty of the Kingsguard, regardless of whether they are black or green.

The butterflies are not done with us yet, however. In the book, when word of Prince Maelor’s death and the grisly manner of his passing (pp. 505) reaches the Red Keep, that proves to be the thing that drives Queen Helaena to suicide. She could barely stand to look at Maelor, knowing that she chose him to die in the “Sophie’s Choice” scene… and now he is dead in truth, her words having come true. The grief and guilt are too much for her to bear.

In Ryan’s outline for season 3, Helaena still kills herself… for no particular reason. There is no fresh horror, no triggering event to overwhelm the fragile young queen.

And the final butterfly follows soon thereafter.

Queen Helaena, a sweet and gentle soul, is much beloved by the smallfolk of King’s Landing. Rhaenyra was not, so when rumors began to arise that Helaena did not kill herself, but rather was murdered at Rhaenyra’s command, the commons are quick to believe them. “That night King’s Landing rose in bloody riot,” I wrote on p. 506 of FIRE & BLOOD. It is the beginning of the end for Rhaenyra’s rule over the city, ultimately leading to the Storming of the Dragonpit and the rise of the Shepherd’s mob that drives Rhaenyra to flee the city and return to Dragonstone… and her death.

Maelor by himself means little. He is a small child, does not have a line of dialogue, does nothing of consequence but die… but where and when and how, that does matter. Losing Maelor weakened the end of the Blood and Cheese sequence, but it also cost us the Bitterbridge scene with all its horror and heroism, it undercut the motivation for Helaena’s suicide, and that in turn sent thousands into the streets and alleys, screaming for justice for their “murdered” queen. None of that is essential, I suppose… but all of it does serve a purpose, it all helps to tie the story lines together, so one thing follows another in a logical and convincing manner.

What will we offer the fans instead, once we’ve killed these butterflies? I have no idea. I do not recall that Ryan and I ever discussed this, back when he first told me they were pushing back on Aegon’s second son. Maelor himself is not essential… but if losing him means we also lose Bitterbridge, Helaena’s suicide, and the riots, well… that’s a considerable loss.

And there are larger and more toxic butterflies to come, if HOUSE OF THE DRAGON goes ahead with some of the changes being contemplated for seasons 3 and 4…

Анон · 2024-09-05 03:51:14

Прочитала пост Мартина, и он еще не упомянул там еще один эффект от смерти Мейлора - месть Дейрона

Анон · 2024-09-05 04:46:24

Понравилось с реддита

The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Maelor came to the Story a character. He ate the peasents at bitterbridge’s fists and feet, and caused his mother’s suicide with his tragic death. And they omitted him. Omitted, I say, and may the writers choke upon their fables. I drink with Ryan, jape with Sara, promise HBO the hand of my own beloved Dunk&Egg … but never think that means I have forgotten. The internet remembers, Lord Reader. The internet remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My blogpost is in the wayback machine.”

Анон · 2024-09-05 06:00:16

Ничего себе какой большой пост Мартин навалял.))

Анон · 2024-09-05 06:28:38

Очень необычный кроссовер Эйгон 2/Оберин

▼Скрытый текст⬍

красивая картинка с деймирой

▼Скрытый текст⬍

Отредактировано (2024-09-05 06:30:54)

Анон · 2024-09-05 09:48:48

Приятельница Мартина в твиттере намекнула, что ему и Рейнисента не нравится.

Анон · 2024-09-05 09:52:10

Анон пишет:

ему и Рейнисента не нравится

Можно было догадаться)

Анон · 2024-09-05 09:57:55

Анон пишет:

Можно было догадаться)

Просто твиттерские уже радовались, что он про это не написал, хотя очевидно, что он только писал про первые 2 эпизода, а про остальные видимо постов уже не будет, к сожалению.

Отредактировано (2024-09-05 09:58:12)

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:10:40

Анон пишет:

Анон пишет:
Что не вяжется с заявленным отвращением Эйгона к умственно-альтернативной сестре. Консумацию и детей он отстрелял, а дальше - увольте. Я так и думал, что пьяным он к служанкам, проституткам, чертям лысым лезет, но не к жене.
Ну выпил и ему все равно. До жены ближе, чем до борделя. С чем ты споришь, если Хелейна сама говорит, что он к ней ходит пьяный

До Эймонда ещё ближе :old:

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:12:08

Анон пишет:

Я люблю Эймонда, поэтому только не это. Я алисмонда-то боюсь, и наверно предпочёл бы, чтобы его не было в сериале, потому что это однозначно будет что-то очень неприятное. Точнее, мне и хочется и колется

Это и в книге было пиздец как неприятно.

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:14:28

Анон пишет:

а про остальные видимо постов уже не будет, к сожалению.

да, очень жаль... Надо было ему сразу все одним постом вывалить

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:17:24

Анон пишет:

Это и в книге было пиздец как неприятно.

В книге это было интересно.

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:19:11

▼Арт - дети участников Танца от CrazyTom (@CrazyTom0712)⬍

Отредактировано (2024-09-05 10:23:35)

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:26:03

Анон пишет:

Просто твиттерские уже радовались, что он про это не написал, хотя очевидно, что он только писал про первые 2 эпизода, а про остальные видимо постов уже не будет, к сожалению.

Если нво из-за поста про нейтрального Мейлора забегали, потребовали удалить и выпустили свой странный пост, то думаю если б он покусился на святое - рейнисенту, от него б наверно одни клочки остались.

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:29:43

Анон пишет:

До Эймонда ещё ближе

Эймонд Мейлора точно не родит

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:31:54

Анон пишет:

Это и в книге было пиздец как неприятно.

В книге было много разных версий, от Алис простоватой местной как бы сказать всем доступной женщины а-ля Пия из основного цикла до крутой ведьмы. И что там у них на самом деле было тоже в зависимости от этого или так или сяк. Вполне возможно, что Алис его не любила, но что Эймонд любил, мне кажется и по книге очевидно.

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:32:25

Анон пишет:

Анон пишет:
Это и в книге было пиздец как неприятно.
В книге это было интересно.

Он убил всех кого она знала. Она его околдовала и он начал творить херню под её влиянием, потом помер.
Институтки хлопают глазками и ахают про большую и не особо то чистую любовь.

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:36:50

Анон пишет:

Он убил всех кого она знала. Она его околдовала и он начал творить херню под её влиянием, потом помер.

Околдовала одна из версий. Про Крапиву и Деймона Рейнира так же говорила, но сомневаюсь, что Крапива околдовывала. И Эймонд вроде творил именно то, что сам считал нужным, а не под влиянием.
Может конечно в сериале и сделают какое-то влияние Алис, но по книге это неочевидно.

Отредактировано (2024-09-05 10:39:05)

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:36:59

Анон пишет:

Она его околдовала и он начал творить херню под её влиянием

Притянуто за уши, Эймонд вполне способен творить херню без внешнего влияния

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:41:49

Анон пишет:

большую и не особо то чистую любовь.

Со стороны Алис кстати никто про любовь не утверждает, что это именно она. Там что угодно может быть - от смирения со своим положением или местью до сознательного охмурения из-за возможной выгоды от принца социальной или магической или и то и другое.

Отредактировано (2024-09-05 10:43:11)

Анон · 2024-09-05 10:48:17

Анон пишет:

возможной выгоды от принца социальной или магической или и то и другое.

Принц - это не только ценный НЕХ, но и 60-70 кг диетического легкоусвояемого мяса :old:

Холиварофорум

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#1 2014-04-28 20:03:43

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#132576 2024-09-05 00:05:15

Re: Престолодрочеры всех стран, в кучу сгребайтесь!

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